Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to symbiosis to be happening podcast season two, just so you know, you can visit us for
[email protected].
Speaker 2 00:00:11 We need to explore all kinds of possibilities, even, even when we feel that we are there. Uh, we're not going to say, oh yeah, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's the perfect solution before investigating other pathways. I mean, it it's interesting, isn't it? Because I would argue that innovation is the truest expression of creativity.
Speaker 0 00:00:36 You're listening here to Y's harras the founder of Bero design company and Steve Ranac executive creative director of Google Greece. Today. Our very rub shares a mountainy with these two gurus for Symbio. During these conversations, we'll be discussing sustainability wellbeing and especially today shining a light on creativity. So welcome to our symbiotic conversations
Speaker 3 00:01:06 Today. We're having an interesting chat with Janni car. Papos he's the founder of the beat root company offers of the SMB be identity. He's calling on the phone from the, and we are enjoying a conversation about what will be a good definition of creativity. What the design process of a brand is like taking into account sustainability and inspiration from nature and how to overcome creative blocks. We, I I've seen the description of your company in the website, uh, where you explain that you blend colors, shapes, sounds, and ideas to build brands of fun, which I really like in the description and also inspire people. Can you explain a little bit about the, this description of your company, which I really like?
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Yes, of course our, our core business is branding actually. So, uh, we cooperate with our clients to rebrand or build a brand from, from the beginning. I think the, the keyword here is have fun. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that's what we are trying to, to communicate across the relationships with, uh, between us and, and the clients. So we were on both sides to be in a happy place when we are in the process of building this brand and actually this reflects to, to the final result. So it's a, it's an ongoing process between the client and ourselves. Uh, you cannot get something really, really top notch if you're not having fun after all.
Speaker 3 00:02:52 <laugh> I totally agree. Yeah. How, how would you define Jan? It's your, what's your idea of creativity? The, the world creativity,
Speaker 2 00:03:02 <laugh>, that's, that's a big conversation, but, uh, in my, in my opinion, uh, and to talk more generally rather than our industry solely, is that when you, when you try to get probably out of, out of your, your comfort zone, uh, or continuously challenging yourself, I think you are going to inevitably end up with creative stuff, even that's in design or in any other or discipline, uh, especially in, in our expertise, we're trying to, to describe and visualize, uh, a culture rather than just a design. So we're trying to, to visual and articulate a brand culture. And that's why I was saying before the, the relationship and the feedback and the input that we have from our clients about their company is really, really precious because that's what we are trying to develop and give out there. <affirmative> so people often confuse, uh, aesthetics with, uh, creativity or, or they speak to aesthetics.
Speaker 2 00:04:31 So if something is aesthetically excellent, doesn't necessarily make it, make it, uh, creative mm-hmm <affirmative>, let's say so when you, when you always try to challenge yourself and, and do something, uh, disruptive, I think that's what, that's what leads to, to creativity. And of course then again, there's a, there's a fine balance between trying to do something different for the sake of it, or try to do something different based on, on a set of values and, and goals that you set together with your client. And try to reflect that in a, in a non-no way,
Speaker 3 00:05:23 How is more or less just to understand from, from our part, the, the process from the briefing in this case, uh, to the final designs of the packing, how, how long is the process, how many people is involved?
Speaker 2 00:05:38 Uh, the very first and fundamental thing do is, um, be part of several workshops with the brand owners and the decision makers, so that we both understand their vision. And we are actually, uh, co deciding the, the direction that we get, because through these workshops, we get to understand them. Uh, we get to, to define our goals together. And before everything, uh, clicks through this process, we don't start to design at all. So once we are ready to, to design, uh, both sides have the same vision, uh, actually
Speaker 4 00:06:34 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:06:36 So it's very, very important because most of, of the people that reach out for us, um, they, they expect, and they want something disruptive, something innovative, something out of the box, but not all of them, uh, are ready to support it. So through, through these workshops, uh, we actually explore the ways and we understand why we're going in a direction, which is really, really important for, for, for the clients to, to have the same concept with us before they see a final outcome.
Speaker 4 00:07:23 Mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:07:24 <affirmative> yeah. To be completely aligned, no. With the ideas of the, the people that is creating something, not really the brand. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:32 Yeah. Because it takes, it takes some guts to, to present and, and make public for your brand. Something that is innovative, something that is disruptive, something that is different. So I would dare to say that consumers maybe, maybe more ready to receive such kind of project sense and work rather than the, the clients and the, the owners themselves, because of course there's a risk involved. So, uh, the more commercial way is always a more easy solution. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so it takes some guts and vision for, for the companies to actually get something different out there. And I really respect the ones that do
Speaker 4 00:08:36 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 3 00:08:38 I, I can understand. And how would you say that, uh, sustaining ability is really connected, uh, to the design process?
Speaker 2 00:08:48 Ah, the big trend there, sustainability now <laugh>, uh, my, something that, uh, annoys me a bit nowadays is that, uh, sustainability, as I said, it has become more, more trends rather than, uh, people looking the real importance behind it. So I think for us in the design field, because of sustainability creates some restrictions, uh, when you have restrictions, you always get more creative. Uh, it's a challenge mm-hmm <affirmative> that you need to, to in incorporate into your findings and your research and your results, uh, that makes, makes the process even more creative. I think, um, if we look back at earlier years, like some decades ago, I, uh, grandmothers and people in the village were sustainable by need. So they recycled and upcycled anything mm-hmm, <affirmative> nothing went wasted, uh, because they had to, to survive, you know?
Speaker 3 00:10:15 Yeah. Especially in that time. So,
Speaker 2 00:10:18 Yeah, exactly. So now that we have the luxury to, and the, and the obligation for our planet to, to talk about and deal with sustainability, again, maybe we should take some lessons from those times and of course, bring them to, to a contemporary, uh, use now,
Speaker 3 00:10:42 Uh, whenever you are in front of a very good claim or a fantastic design, do you immediately, uh, see it, or you need a certain time to analyze or to digest, or
Speaker 2 00:10:55 Me as a consumer, you mean, or
Speaker 3 00:10:58 You as a, as an expert. Yeah. When, when you have a solution, maybe from your team, uh, which is a design or a logo or a packaging design, can you see the, the perfection in, in a moment or you need some time,
Speaker 2 00:11:14 We, we need to explore all kinds of possibilities, even, even when we feel that we are there. Uh, we're not going to say, oh yeah, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's the perfect solution before investigating other pathways. So it's, it's a quite, uh, demanding and, uh, difficult, uh, process because you might get really enthusiastic about an idea and actually leave out any, any, even better ones. So yeah, it, it can be a bit tricky.
Speaker 3 00:11:58 What, uh, what, what do you suggest, uh, when someone from your team or even yourself is, uh, feeling blocked with no ideas in a certain moment, we suggest to, to take a mountain tea, but maybe you have other suggestions.
Speaker 2 00:12:12 Ah, that's, that's a good solution. Take a mountain tea and maybe take the day off. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, there there's, there's no, uh, you cannot force inspiration and, and design. So it's a good thing to, to take some time off in order to see the situation from another place. And we actually encourage that. And of course, that's why we are a team. Everyone can cover up for another, when this happens, it happens to everyone. It's not something that they, you shouldn't feel bad about.
Speaker 3 00:12:57 No. Good to know. <laugh> yeah. I'm going to put you another and
Speaker 2 00:13:02 Maybe, maybe that's a good thing to follow in everyone's life. Not just in, in an agency or yeah. Yeah. You know, work
Speaker 3 00:13:13 I'm, I'm going, uh, to put you another difficult and double question, uh, is a design you really like from nature and from a designer or from a company,
Speaker 2 00:13:30 Uh, nature is, has fantastic and outstanding designs wherever you look. I think <laugh>, it would be unfair to <laugh> to distinguish one or another, uh, as for designers,
Speaker 3 00:13:53 Maybe an object or an idea, something from the history.
Speaker 2 00:14:00 We, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wanna say a name or something, but what I want to say is design is a very broad area with, with many, many disciplines. It's, uh, it's not only graphic design architecture, industrial objects, uh, yacht design, whatever. What we, what we do is to, to try to keep up to date with all those fields, even though our, our main field is in branding and communication, visual communication, because you can always get an interpret little stuff that's going on in other, in other industries. And, uh, it actually makes you more contemporary.
Speaker 4 00:14:52 Mm-hmm, <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:14:54 It's a good, it's a good thing to, to have the, the ability to, to, to embrace things, to spot very good practices and feel good about it, even though you haven't done them yourself.
Speaker 4 00:15:10 Mm.
Speaker 3 00:15:11 Good advice. So, and you you've been, uh, successful as a company in creativity, which is not easy. Why, why do you think, what do you think is the key to success when you're talking about creativity?
Speaker 2 00:15:26 Uh, I would read, I would write a book if I knew the answer, But I think not, not getting anxious, too anxious to get there, but taking, taking it step by step. And as we begin our conversation, having fun, uh, I think it, it comes by itself and that's the best way to, to pursue it.
Speaker 3 00:15:59 What do you think, um, is, uh, the, the connection of these three topics together? So how could we talk about sustainability? Uh, talk about, uh, wellbeing and also to about innovation and creativity at the same time?
Speaker 2 00:16:16 Uh, I think they're interconnected by default in, in every, in every aspect. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, for example, at what's happening with electricity, I mean, uh, companies and government are trying to find more sustainable ways of, of getting energy. Uh, you, you might contribute to that, uh, as a consumer and you get to, to have a smart home or an electric car, <affirmative>, that's leading to your wellbeing and to, to actually enjoy benefits of all this interconnection in your everyday life. And that's one thing, one of the, of the areas that, that this is happening, I think it's going to be all over our lives.
Speaker 3 00:17:20 Do you have any, uh, wellbeing secret, like, uh, something that you do and, uh, that makes you feel better or whatever, an activity or a habit or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:17:32 Yes, we actually do as a team. Again, we work from a summer beach house for two months during summer. Wow. And that keeps us going for, for the rest of the year. <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:17:48 That's a, a very good idea, in fact, huh?
Speaker 2 00:17:52 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:53 Do you, do you, uh, like tea, do you consume tea and in what moment of the day and what kind of tea or something?
Speaker 2 00:18:02 I'm, I'm more of a coffee guy, but with symbiosis, and that's not a cliche to say, I managed to cut down of the coffees and in the afternoons, I'm taking this magic pyramid and enjoy it.
Speaker 3 00:18:21 <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:18:21 I can choose taste though. So I'm still in the, in the tasting period.
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Mm-hmm <affirmative> Now we connect with Steve beak is a true guru of creativity and design in Europe. In addition to collaborating with Google creative labs internationally for years, he's one of the people in our continent who is most used to collaborating with creatives companies and institutions that respect the environment and the human being today. He talks about rabbit holes, serendipity and curiosity. Maybe creativity is more powerful than we could think. Brack is says will listen to him. Do you have any anecdotes connected to this, uh, very personal vision of, uh, true creativity?
Speaker 2 00:19:13 So, well, one of the, one of the things that I used to talk a lot about, and I, I say used to in the past that's because I've stopped doing the speaking circuit just because it's very well, it it's very demanding, but it also requires a lot of travel. Mm. And travel was my big vice travel, was my, my, um, a big sort of negative contributor to all things that I want to protect like environment. Hmm. So I've really cut down on that, but when I was doing it, I used to do a talk that was titled we are more powerful than we think. Hmm. Uh, and it was all about the ABI that we all possess as everyday individuals who don't necessarily have superpowers beyond the ones that we know, um, to do things that have huge scale and magnitude, um, and that we need to also look into ourselves and find that confidence, uh, and the relief that we are capable of doing these things.
Speaker 2 00:20:15 Um, and I would cite examples of, you know, through the past, uh, young people who had, uh, you know, created, uh, world changing, um, inventions mm-hmm <affirmative> to people in developing nations who with extreme scarcity were able to develop, uh, platforms and ideas and technologies, uh, to, uh, sort of build better livelihoods for themselves, all these sorts of things that when you sort of, uh, allow individuals, um, the opportunity to learn and you allow them to use their ingenuity and resourcefulness, they, they inevitably get to a really interesting place, um, somewhat even call it, they innovate, you know, innovation.
Speaker 3 00:21:04 How, how will, uh, would you define a consistent project when you have a lot of people participating in it at the same time, especially when you are dealing with
Speaker 2 00:21:14 Yeah. So, so that, so it's interesting, you know, my, my last position at the creative lab in London, um, we had a lot of, some of the most talented people, I think in the world who, who in the alumni is incredible. You know, one guy went to deep mind, the, uh, AI company, another went to MIT, the, um, tangible interfaces group. Another one went to run the innovation group at Nike. You know, we, it was very special time where we had all gathered. We were working together a lot of talented people and, and it was my, my sort of role in my job for the most part, not only to do the traditional things that a were expected of a leader and a manager in terms of guiding them and ensuring that they're challenged and giving them projects that allow them to make an impact, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:22:05 But I had to sort of ensure that when we were hiring people, when we were creating teams that the chemistry and the culture were the things that we led with, because you, you know, my, my fundamental remit was to create the conditions and an environment for these individuals to succeed. And so much of that was based on the and respect that they would have in each other. And when you're working in quote unquote creative industries, where a lot of the time, as I said earlier in this, in this, uh, discussion, a lot of the time you're putting out ideas that might be seemingly ridiculous. And maybe even dare I say stupid, but those ideas could possess the kernel of genius, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if you're afraid to put those out, they will never go anywhere. So creating an environment where people can do and say anything and other people feel that they can, uh, uh, sort of, uh, grasp those idea and build on them are the ways you get to really interesting, big creative thoughts. Uh, so, so that's, that's critical to an environment. Um, you know, you, you could talk about no egos and et cetera, et cetera. Those are, those are a given, but what I'm talking about is how you actually orchestrate and create that formula for people to succeed.
Speaker 3 00:23:34 You refer to nature. Uh, let me ask you, uh, what is your favorite design from nature? Something that you are in love with it, and also human design that you like, your favorite ones.
Speaker 2 00:23:49 Yeah. I mean, the nature, the nature, thing's funny because there's, there's so much beauty in all things nature. I mean, anything, uh, you know, from, from plants to, to the shells that wash up on the beach and the textures and the, and the, um, the graphic almost approach to them all. But, but it was interesting. I was looking, uh, in the lockdown, we, we were, uh, these people that got a dog, um, and we had never had a dog before. Uh, and then we loved the dog so much. We got another dog so that the dog could have a dog companion. Um, we got a dog that, uh, from a, from a functional and a rational perspective, met the criteria, which was, uh, it had to be good with kids. It had it's hypoallergenic, cuz I have allergies to dog hair, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:24:40 But what's interesting is if you put all that aside, I think it's an incredibly is gonna sound so ridiculous. Alright. But I'm gonna say it anyway. I think it is an incredibly beautifully designed dog <laugh> um, and the dog is an Italian Greyhound. Um, and if you don't know what they look like greyhounds, but they're miniature, they're smaller. But when you look at the way it's designed, it almost looks like a super bike, like a Duca or something like that, because it has this tiny, tiny little waist <laugh>, uh, in front of its hen legs. And then it goes into this massive ribcage that looks like this engine. Right. Um, and then it's got its, its front legs and then it's got this really elongated neck, um, and the snout and all of those things. I'm not an expert, but you could, you could tell it's kind of obvious what's happening.
Speaker 2 00:25:33 All of those things are designed around this notion of built for speed. All right. These things, you know, we always have it on a leash when we're in town, because if it takes off, you will never catch it. But it's, if you, if now that I've mentioned it and hopefully I've described it. Okay. When you look at these dogs and again, I've never had a dog, so maybe I'm late to the party and people have known these things about these dogs for a long time, but it is, it's just an incredible piece of design. And I use the design word, um, metaphorically, but you could argue it is, well, it is not, you argue it is one of nature's incredible designs to design, uh, something like, uh, like this mm-hmm. So that, that's what I would say from nature. Wow. And, and I think from human, I mean, I, I, I wouldn't even know where to start because everything from some of the, the architecture, uh, past and present, uh, the industrial, you know, everything beat Rams.
Speaker 2 00:26:31 I mean, I, I, I, I don't even know typography. I, I wouldn't know where to start because I'm a massive fan of design and aesthetic and the beauty that it brings into the world, uh, I've been guilty of, of, um, you know, deciding against a certain hotel to go on holiday because there are really badly designed curtains in the photograph on the booking engine. And I'm like, I'm not gonna stay in stare something like that for a week. And I know it almost sounds crash or arrogant, but I believe that if you want to, um, uh, sort of live and breathe this philosophy of the beauty of the world, both human made and, and made by nature, I think you need to surround yourself with these sorts of things.
Speaker 3 00:27:19 Uh, is, uh, how would you say, uh, that is the best way of dealing with the excess of information? Because when, uh, we are in, in our forest, but, uh, when we were young, there, there wasn't much information. You need a book or you have to look for the information carefully, and now you have a lot of information on some of the young students, they too much information. So how would you say about the, this excess of ideas?
Speaker 2 00:27:50 Yeah. Th this is where this is where the other constraints I, I alluded to earlier come into play. And I, and I think there is, I agree with you, there's just too much of anything out there and it creates this a FOMO, uh, culture. And I think, you know, there's so much out there. I actually don't even know where to get my start. Sometimes, sometimes I have, um, a writer's block when I'm trying to type in a website address. Like I, I don't even know where to start anymore. Um, and it's interesting. This is where I think, uh, forcing constraints upon yourself into terms of prioritizing and following sort of some sort of a discipline in the approach that you take in what you do, how you consume it. Because I think that the good thing about the internet is it is a connection of connections in the network of networks.
Speaker 2 00:28:41 The bad thing is, well, it could be deemed good or bad, is it, it is also a series of rabbit holes. And sometimes those rabbit holes take you to really interesting places. Like when you, when you sort of follow the Wikipedia rabbit hole approach to reading about one thing and ending up linking to, uh, you know, a multitude of different things. But I think, um, I think, um, you know, the inform thing, um, you know, as I said, forcing those constraints that allow you to actually focus on what you're trying to achieve that day, what you're interested in, uh, uh, learning about, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, and also allowing for an element of serendipity. I think serendipity, the other big thing that I worry about is if it gets too structured, you lose the notion of sanity and discovery, uh, and curiosity, which, which are at the heart of creativity. But I think that's what I try to do. I try to force some constraints and I try to structure the approach. I'm going to take in terms of the context of why I'm doing something that day or that week, or that month. Um, otherwise, as I said, uh, you know, and it's worse, you start somewhere, you have a huge, and you have no idea what you were embarking on to begin with.
Speaker 3 00:30:06 Do you remember the first time, um, you connect with, uh, SIS the first time you knew about the project?
Speaker 2 00:30:15 Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I met, um, Mr. Ni in Del at the big conference in Delphy and he did a talk and he was sitting next to me and we were at this round table and it was full of all these sort of very important people, government, all these sorts of people. Um, and he did a talk, um, and I was blown away by, and, and I know this is, and, and I, how do I say this? So somebody at, at the point of his, at the moment in his career and the successes that he had had was talking so passionately about, uh, us having to rethink everything. And, and he's at a point in his career where he could easily, uh, retire, I think, but he is starting, he has started another company with Mrs. <inaudible>. That is an incredible example of putting, I think, I think I hope I get the order, right?
Speaker 2 00:31:13 Putting people planet for profit and demonstrating firsthand that they're not mutually exclusive, that you could be dare. I say a capitalist with a conscience, and it's not about, uh, political ideologies, but I wanna make it clear that you could run a successful business. You could grow the business, you could be a meaningful employer and you could generate revenue, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you could, at the end of the day, I think that's what a lot of businesses are in the game for, but it doesn't have to be at the detriment of the planet. And that's the thing that is powerful with business, because it's one thing for me as an individual to say that, okay. Um, but that doesn't scale when a business demonst that they are doing good alongside, uh, making profit, then it builds a business case to be good to the planet and to have it as this equal stakeholder, which is what they talk about a lot at symbiosis, this duality of loving yourself and loving the planet.
Speaker 2 00:32:23 And again, I'm not doing a it for the brand, but I think these are really important things because you, as an individual need to ensure that you are getting the benefit of whatever is on offer. But if you can benefit alongside knowing that the other side is benefiting the planet and mother nature is benefiting, then it's, it's a win-win situation. And that's why I think this notion of this symbiotic relationship is way above sustainability. Sustainability is awesome. Sustain inability, in my opinion is probably not enough anymore based on the situation we've gotten ourselves in and where we're at. And I think we have to completely rethink this relationship we have. And this thing that, uh, Mr and Mrs, uh, uh, Nico and Nikki <inaudible> talk about, which is we are not better than the things around us. We are equal. We are lucky actually, if we're even equal to them, because I think some of the things that nature produces are infinitely more intelligent than, than humankind mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and I think once we realize that we accept that and we embrace them and we welcome it as an equal stakeholder in every aspect of our lives, then I think we may stand a chance at actually doing what's needed to be done in order to sustain, uh, um, this incredible place that we call, uh, earth.
Speaker 3 00:33:57 Wow. Thank you for ER, X produce apply to this, uh, idea in, in what sense do you think that creativity and the quality of being creative and innovative are connected? What is for you the difference between being creative and innovative? And do you have, uh, in mind an example?
Speaker 2 00:34:17 Yeah, I, I mean, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I would all argue that innovation is the truest expression of creativity. Okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so I, I, I think when you see some of these things that some of these pioneers, whether it's, um, I don't know, Elon Musk stuff, or, or, or, or, or, or the late Virgil Ablo, who I think was one, the, one of the most innovative individuals in the field of design, uh, and, and he sadly passed away a few days ago. So you probably know, and, and he was somebody, an entire generation of individuals and people like myself, uh, looked up to, you know, these people were incredible visionaries, incredible, uh, creative people. And these things allowed them to innovate because I think innovation is like, it it's like that joke. I, I dunno how it goes. It goes something like, um, don't, um, don't tell people you're funny, make them laugh. Right. And, and, and it's like that, like, if you, you don't tell people you're innovative, right. You blow them away with your ideas. Right. And I think that's what innovation to me is, is, is, as I said, this really pure, I potent form of creativity that manifests itself in some sort of, um, idea, uh, it could be a product. It could be whatever, it could be an algorithm. It doesn't really matter, but that, that's what I believe the relationship is between the two,
Speaker 3 00:35:49 What is your tea and honey routine?
Speaker 2 00:35:52 Uh, it's like asking me, which, which is my favorite child. I love all my kids the same, but I, um, I, I'm a big fan of the Trinity. And I'll tell you why. I think I actually believe it or not can feel it when I, when I drink it, I can feel it. Like, I, I still drink coffee, but the Trinity, because of the way it's been developed and, and in inherently the, the no of Trinity, um, and, and the tea with the tea, um, I, I have it hot in the morning and I have a bit of honey because I try not to do, to, uh, have too much, honey. Um, I have a bit of honey, um, and I can really feel it as I said, it's not a, I can't, I, I won't see. It makes, it gives me energy boost, et cetera. I can just feel something happening, uh, in me, which is, which is amazing. And now I'm gonna say something that might, might not be good for sales, but I'll say it anyway. <laugh> um, and then I take the bag and I put it in a, um, in a mug, uh, like a, a LA mini mug that I can seal, and I fill it with hot water water again for a second time. And I put it in the fridge
Speaker 3 00:37:02 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:37:03 <affirmative> and then I drink it as iced tea for lunch the following day. So the joke about not good for businesses, I use the bag twice, but because it's a Trinity, I think you could probably use it maybe five or six times. I'm not suggesting you do that. I think you should probably by a new one, every, every so often, but it's interesting. Its potency, um, is retained and I also think, uh, drinking it warm in the morning, drinking it cold the following day after it's been sort of marinating overnight and the fridge again, maybe this is something everybody does and I I'm, I'm stating the obvious, but this is something I've just kind of started doing. And it's really, really, really fantastic both in, in taste and how it makes you feel.
Speaker 3 00:37:47 Hmm. Thanks. Uh, Mr. BAK for your time and for sharing all your thoughts and ideas and also some of about your personal use of symb. Thank you very much. No.
Speaker 2 00:37:58 Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for having and was a real pleasure. So thank you very much.
Speaker 0 00:38:08 Well, listeners we've had the authentic privilege there to dive for a while into the minds of these two highly creative and productive gentlemen. I'll surely be listening again to make sure that I soak up all the ideas that we manage to crime in, into this podcast. And, uh, we hope that you tune to the next one and remember, love yourself and love your planet.
